Peter Hinssen: Full Episode Transcript

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Ashley (01:14.66)

Peter Hinssen is a globally recognized keynote speaker, bestselling author, serial entrepreneur, and expert in innovation, leadership, and technology. As a self-described pathological optimist, Hinssen champions the idea that organizations must embrace the day after tomorrow, a future shaped by uncertainty and exponential change.

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He's delivered high impact keynote presentations around the world for companies such as Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon. With six books under his belt, including The Uncertainty Principle, out now, Peter uses a splash of wit to challenge leaders to think about transformation and resilience in the AI never normal era. Peter, welcome to Question Everything.

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Peter Hinssen: Introduction 

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (02:01.868)

Well, very, very happy to be here and thank you very much for inviting me. It's a pleasure. Absolutely.

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Ashley (02:06.596)

Awesome. We met at ANA just recently. You were the keynote for Masters of Marketing and I was sitting in my little seat just taking notes as fast as my fingers could type. I was blown away by your presentation. The way I described it back here at the office, I said, it was the best optimistic view of AI I have ever heard. I learned more in that 45 minutes or so.

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Ashley (02:34.85)

than I had in all of the articles I had read up until this point. So thank you for that.

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Peter (02:39.966)

Thank you for that. That's really kind. I mean, I have a special style of doing keynotes. It's rapid fire. There's a lot of information. think what I love is that people in the audience take out their phone and then I'm just too late. That's exactly what I'm going for.

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Ashley (02:59.116)

That was me. I have so many photos in my camera roll of you. And so I have to ask how many slides were actually in that presentation?

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Peter (03:08.206)

So it's a good question. So I have an alarming rate now of 100 visuals per 10 minutes. So in a 45 minute presentation, I will go through 450 slides. And I think I remember one of my first trainings I ever had a long time ago was a PowerPoint training. And I remember that the instructor said, it's very simple, one slide, three minutes. That doesn't work anymore. yeah, it's 450 slides in 45 minutes.

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Ashley (03:13.858)

Okay.

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Ashley (03:35.012)

That's incredible. I was going to guess about 220. We also, my team and I were talking about how you were also a master of the clicker. Like you have just claimed that you could do a whole presentation on that, I think.

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Peter (03:43.374)

What?

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Peter (03:48.256)

I want the right image with the right words to really, the timing has to be perfect. So I'm pretty particular about the tools that I use. I think we live in a society now where we're all visual animals, but I think in the TikTok generation, I think we're used to that rich dynamics of visuals and images. And I want it to be just right. So I think the timing is crucial.

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Ashley (04:14.464)

It is and the impact is incredible. Okay, so you just launched a new book. You just wrote a book. It's out now. You previewed a little bit of it with us. Tell the listeners a little bit about what you just wrote.

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Peter (04:26.894)

No, I'm happy. I mean, the book is called The Uncertainty Principle. It's a reference to the world of quantum physics, where about 100 years ago, the whole world of physics all of a sudden changed, where we had the classic physics that gave us the Industrial Revolution. Amazing. But if you would go really quickly or very, very small, it just didn't work anymore.

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And I think I've used that as a metaphor to say we now live in a world that changes so quickly. We see such velocity in every single day. I mean, we turn on our phone in the morning and we think, really? What just happened?

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And we probably need a different style of thinking about leadership and strategy in this crazy world. I call it the never normal, a world of constant change and volatility. And the basic idea of the uncertainty principle is three things. We need to be better at anticipating. We got to pick up the signals. We need to be much faster at adapting and being agile to turn that into execution.

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And we're not gonna get everything right. We need the resilience to actually figure out what to do in case we make a mistake. But that idea of anticipation, that adaptability and the resilience is the very heart of the idea of the uncertainty principle.

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Ashley (05:40.814)

Brilliant. Okay. Well, we will link to the book in the show notes as well. And we're going to dig into that today and more. so as you know, this podcast, has a game board stacked with 12 spicy questions. You, I'm, I'm excited. I'm going to, we're going to put your improv skills to the test here a little bit. You don't know what's behind any of these numbers. And the power is all in your hands, my friend. So where do you want to go first?

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Peter (05:53.366)

Really cool!

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Peter Hinssen: Why Peter is a pathological optimist as a technologist

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (06:06.252)

Let's take the last one, number 12.

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Ashley (06:07.86)

Okay, number 12. There has to be some like psychology behind the numbers that we pick too. Okay, well I said this in my opening, but you describe yourself as a pathological optimist. How has this impacted your career, and how can others adopt a similar mindset?

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Peter (06:11.562)

Yeah.

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Peter (06:25.592)

So great question. I think my training is I'm an engineer. So I'm a technologist by training. I did startups when I was younger. I love that world. And I think the interesting thing about having an engineering background is you kind of just fall into a sea of innovation and excitement about technology. I don't think you can survive as an engineer if you don't feel that excitement.

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And then it was really funny when I started with the startups, and then later the strategy work where not always that excitement came across. I would do a presentation to a board on new ideas, and I would be super excited. And then I could see they were staring back at me, and they had no idea why I was so excited. And I think this is something that has served me well. I really believe in the power of positive thinking.

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But it's also been confrontational sometimes when I'm not getting that message across or I can't get people excited. So I think a big part of what I do now is to try and maintain that positive narrative that is super important for me. I think in the world of technology and innovation, certainly AI,

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There's a lot of doom stories. There's a lot of negativity. I'm really glad you picked up on that in the intro as well, that you said, wow, this is a positive story about what this could actually mean. And I think for me, that is something which has become almost my motif, almost the way I look at the world. I want to understand how we can use this to build a better world, to...

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you know, to advance as society, as humans, as individuals, as leaders, as organizations. And that enthusiasm is something that I try to get across in many of my messages. And it's not that I'm naive, that I don't know that there are darker edges to this, but I'm really, really, really careful about building a positive narrative, because I think we need that more than ever in this world of the never normal.

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Ashley (08:31.554)

I couldn't agree more. feel like, especially in the world of AI, there's so much fear and anxiety. And I think it's preventing some people from even starting or dipping their toe in it and being curious about it. And so I know for me, at least, I really appreciated your perspective. And you shared on both sides of the coin some of those darker edges, but then also some of the amazing advances that have happened because of AI.

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The Lego example that you gave was so interesting to me. We have three kids, and the technology that now you can just take a picture of your mess of Legos and it will develop creative projects that you can do.

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Peter (09:11.372)

Yeah, exactly. And I think I've been really influenced by a number of people. And one of the people who really had a great influence on me was Hans Rosling. And he was a famous statistician, sociologist. And he wrote that book Factfulness. And he was actually always giving examples of how over the last 200 years, technology has made our lives so much better, how innovation has really improved.

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what we have as society at large. And he passed away, unfortunately, a couple of years ago. I had the chance to work with him on a few occasions, but that optimism and that fundamental belief that technology could make our lives better, that is deeply rooted in my beliefs.

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‍Peter Hinssen: Why AI isn’t a real threat to ad agencies

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Ashley (09:55.94)

Do you believe that advertising agencies will exist in five years? I've even heard that. There will be no more ad agencies in five years.

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Peter (10:05.362)

I don't think so. I think this idea of getting your message across about building a story and engaging people with that, I think that is the oldest time. And I think that's going to pass the test of time. I'm not sure if the advertising agency of today will be the same if we're going to have the same skills or the same competencies, the same format or the same dynamics. Probably not. mean,

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Every industry is changing and advertising is no different, but the fundamental nature of what advertising does, building a story and engaging people, I think that is something that is here to stay, absolutely.

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Ashley (10:45.636)

All right, let's go back to the game board.

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Peter Hinssen: The harm tomorrow thinking is causing business leaders

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (10:48.568)

Cool. What about number seven?

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Ashley (10:51.684)

Okay, number seven, why should CMOs carve out 10% of their week to focus on the day after tomorrow?

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Peter (11:00.994)

That's a nice question. So I have this model which I call the day after tomorrow, which is a very simple idea. I wrote a book on that a couple of years ago called the day after tomorrow. And it's very simple. How much time you spend on today, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. And today is just the hectic of everyone's lives. It's the hundreds of emails you all get. And it's not just the emails, it's the text messages, the WhatsApps.

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It's the Slack channels, it's the Zoom calls, it's the TM. And I always make the joke, you know, how many people, you know, drive to work on Monday morning, naively thinking today is going to be a productive day. And then you get that email at nine seven and you think, well, there goes my day. And that's a problem. But the biggest problem I often find is tomorrow. Because many people, many organizations suffer from tomorrow thinking it's where they, they extrapolate their comfort zone and hope that next year is about the same.

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And I always make a joke, know, budgets is a great example of that. Budgets is a yearly sarcastic corporate ritual where people put fake news in Excel that's consolidated in something which rarely works nowadays. And that's why I urge people to spend 10 % of their time on what I call the day after tomorrow. And these are the new ideas. These are the innovations, things that are absolute game changers. And what I love about that is it's really stupid, right? 10%.

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The reality is most people don't do that. I always say it's not 70-20-10, it's 93-7-0 because 93 % of our time goes up in these day-to-day hectic. We spend 7 % of our time making up budgets that really don't work anymore and we rarely have the time. And I think certainly as CMOs nowadays, there's so much going on, there is so much day-to-day activity.

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But carving out 10%, I think it's almost like a discipline. And I urge people to say, okay, how many hours a week do you work? 40, 45, 50, whatever. Can you spend four hours, four and a half hours, five hours every week on things that are not today, not tomorrow, not the shit of yesterday, but really things that are capable of really being complete game changers, learning new things.

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Peter (13:24.846)

experimenting with things and I think we're in a situation that if you don't do that, you're probably going to be, you know, bypassed by reality very, very soon. So that's why I think that 10 % is super important.

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Ashley (13:36.802)

I mean, I think it's such a good challenge for all of us. And when you put it in into the context of four hours, five hours, it doesn't feel like that much yet as leaders, we're not doing it. It's funny, but that was one graph that I actually got a photo of. And I was texting it to my partners, my two business partners. And we were joking saying like, we actually need to talk about this because we, there is a problem here. And when you put up the red box of the shit of yesterday,

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Ashley (14:03.884)

Like that just really brought it home for me because at least, you know, our president, I mean, he's very much kind of stuck in the grind of yesterday, fixing the problems day in and day out. And, and you know, our chief creative officer, he's very much in the today, the projects and getting the work through the house. I'm from a business development marketing standpoint, I'm way more in the future and you know, kind of six months ahead, a year ahead where we're going and it creates some tension even amongst us. And so I love that as a challenge for a leadership group too to sit down and really think about where am I spending my time and where is it best used.

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Peter (14:39.686)

I agree. I think, you know, even if it's just a jargon or a vocabulary or just a way of addressing things. And I mean, I've been using, I wrote that book the day after tomorrow, I think seven, eight years ago. And I've been teaching at London Business School and using that model and, you know, doing a lot of keynotes around the world. And I think it's probably what many people will remember. I think I probably have a shit of yesterday legacy. I mean, a couple of months ago, I was in the airport.

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and I was washing my hands in the bathroom and next to me was a guy who said, I know you, you're the guy from the shit of yesterday because he was in my class at London Business School years ago. So I'm okay with that. But even if you just address that in an organization, are we spending too much time in the past? Are we really addressing enough time in the day after tomorrow in the discussion with your clients, you know, in how you think about how you want to take the organization forward, even at a board level, right? I mean, I

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boards where you spend so much time on the numbers and it's all about today and tomorrow, but are you really spending enough time on that longer-term horizon? And I think it's crucial in a world which is now changing so incredibly rapidly in this never-normal.

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Ashley (15:55.236)

Great. All right, let's go back to the board.

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Peter Hinssen: How you can use uncertainty to your advantage

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (15:58.486)

Okay, I've had the last one. Let's go for number one.

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Ashley (16:01.742)

Number one, uncertainty is an uncomfortable position, but certainty is an absurd one. So why do you know this to be true? This is a quote that you included in your presentation.

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Peter (16:15.318)

Well, I think it's a wonderful quote by Voltaire and Voltaire is a famous French philosopher. Hundreds of years ago, he wrote that. And I think it's probably more true today than ever before. And we see this. I mean, uncertainty has become the norm now. And I wrote

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the book, The Uncertainty Principle in 2024, because it takes about a year to write the book. And while 2024 was unfolding, I was super miserable writing the book. I thought, I missed the window to bring out a book on uncertainty. I'm now happier than ever that I brought out the book in 2025, because if you look at it, there's this thing called the World Uncertainty Index, and that has just spiked this year. And it's...

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Let's be honest. mean, it's also the political geopolitical situation. Look at the impact that tariffs have had on the world economy. And the interesting thing about this is that when you are confronted with that much uncertainty and instability, and a lot of people say, this is really scary. And what we need to do is protect ourselves. We need to mitigate the risks and hedge our bets. And we need to find a way to

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protect and isolate that. And I think this is fundamentally wrong. I think what we need to do is embrace that. think uncertainty has to become your friend, your ally. I think you need to find ways to use that as a leverage mechanism. How can you actually use uncertainty to your advantage? And that is the complexity that we have in the world of today. I meet a lot of business leaders who say it's never been crazier. I mean, our entire strategic plan.

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The entire budget of 2025 that we built in November 2024, we could just flush it down the toilet in March. And certainly in April when the Liberation Day was announced, it doesn't make sense anymore. And I think we're now seeing leaders that are beginning to see that uncertainty is not going to disappear. It's not going to go away. It's probably going to maybe even intensify. The speed is going to increase.

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Peter (18:31.276)

So let's find ways to use that, to leverage that. And the main message there is make uncertainty your friend. It's not your enemy.

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Ashley (18:40.834)

And I think that is so relevant across kind of the entire organization, even new employees coming into the marketplace right now, just embracing uncertainty at the jump all the way through the organization. Any advice to organizational leaders, how to get their culture, their people more comfortable with uncertainty.

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Peter (19:02.274)

Well, I think it's a crucial thing because when you look at it, does leadership change as a result of that world of the never normal? And I think it does. And I think one of the crucial things is I think leaders have to build a sense of urgency without scaring people. And that is a very tricky thing to do because it's really easy to scare people. mean, you can just...

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open up the media and read everything that's been happening. And you just, you can easily spook somebody nowadays, but how can you build a sense of urgency without scaring people? How can you get them excited about this never normal? How can you basically foster their curiosity in a world that is becoming more and more weird in a way? And I think that is something which I go back to the narrative. That is the crucial thing. And

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building a positive narrative for your employees as a leader, you have people who want to hear that positive message. And I think the worst story to tell is, you know what? It's going to get better. I don't think that is the reality. You can't just wait for the world to become more stable and calm. But I think leading people into a positive message, into a sense of urgency,

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and where they get excited and even curious about that never normal, that narrative has never been more important.

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Ashley (20:33.954)

Yeah, that's really good advice. I love that curiosity plays into that. That's definitely at the root of our culture as well. Transparency, curiosity, and the optimism, I think together is a great combination for leaders right now. All right, let's go back to the board.

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Peter Hinssen: Why organizations should shift from a scalable execution model to a scalable learning one

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (20:48.492)

Wonderful. Wow. So, okay, I'm trying to be, let's take number six, then we have a pretty symmetric pattern on the board. like that.

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Ashley (20:56.682)

Okay, okay. So the cost of doing has plummeted and the cost of waiting has skyrocketed. What does this mean in your opinion for client agency relationships?

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Peter (21:12.684)

So I think the fundamental idea is that we're in that world where the cost of doing is basically going to zero. And it means that we have all these means and tools and technologies at our disposal where we can try things and experiment. And I think that is, I think a challenging one, even more challenging is that at the same time, the cost of waiting goes up because the longer that you have the complexity that you hesitate

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The world is changing and you're going to lose opportunities. So it's really about how do you find the signals early enough that you're confident enough to make a decision. And we all know that the longer you wait, then your basically portfolio of options gets depleted. So timing is crucial. Speed is important. And I think when you look at the client agency relationship,

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The fact that the experimentation has become so cheap, I think we're going to have to acknowledge that we're typically in the past, brands would farm out a lot of that experimentation to the agencies. That's going to be effective. I mean, think personally, I think it's a good thing that a lot of brand owners are capable of testing and trying things and finding out ways. And I think

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nurturing that experimentation is more important than ever before. But at the same time, I think when people say, yeah, that's it, that's what we need to do, then putting that into execution at scale, I think this is where that professionalism of the agencies is going to play into their favor. Because I think a lot of these tools are great for trying stuff and experimenting and having a feel of what works and what doesn't work.

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but it's still in art to turn that into really scalable execution. And I think this is where the expertise of the agency lies. This is where they understand how to move the needle, how to do this at scale, how to do this in a safe way, how to do this with all the opportunities we have from an innovation point of view. So I think the dynamics there are going to be interesting because the dynamics could be affected.

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Peter (23:35.404)

the traditional relationship between client and agency, we're not gonna hope that that is going to remain. But I think it's an exciting new field and I think agencies who understand that and who acknowledge that, I think are gonna thrive in this never normal.

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Ashley (23:50.966)

If you were an agency owner, you've owned a lot of businesses, started a lot of businesses. What's one thing that you would change or start doing right now as it relates to this topic?

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Peter (24:02.21)

Well, think so my first company that I started a long time ago was one of the first web agencies in Europe. So we scaled that and really rode that wave of the first web, the first internet bubble basically. And what was fascinating there is that we were super excited about the technology because it was radically new technology and we could do things that had never been done before.

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I think the biggest lesson I learned there is that you have to really focus on what makes strategic sense for those customers. And I think this is where introducing new ideas and technologies, you know, help them open up their mind. Now even more. So if I would have an agency today, I think I would probably spend a lot of time with my brands, with my customers to really help them in that experimentation phase.

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instead of fearing that this could impact my revenues or my bottom line, I would just reach out to them and say, listen, there's a lot of stuff you guys can do now. There's a lot of things that you can play around with and experiment. And I'm willing to help you do that because I think it is important that you understand the potential of what these new things can actually do. So I would say be more proactive than ever before, because if you can help your customers.

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get excited as excited as we all are, then I think it's only gonna benefit the relationship.

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Ashley (25:35.136)

That's great advice. I think one of the reasons why agencies get fired you'll hear often times they weren't proactive enough. I didn't bring me enough, you know, original thinking and I think using this technology in that way could really help that relationship. Great advice. All right, let's go back to the board.

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Peter Hinssen: How leaders can give their teams courage facing the never-normal climate

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (25:52.578)

Great, what about number four?

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Ashley (25:56.408)

You call on CMOs to be courageous and lead their teams by not reacting to change, but shaping the future before it arrives. How do they do that?

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Peter (26:08.107)

Well, that's the, you know, now the $5 trillion question, I think. And I think, you know, we're in a world that, you know, it's, I think it's really fascinating to see how, you know, consumers are changing as a result of all this innovation. And I think, I mentioned in the keynote as well, I'm just really fortunate that we have two children.

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Ashley (26:11.458)

Hahaha.

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Peter (26:32.552)

and they're an amazing lens onto the future. And that's, of course, anecdotal evidence, but we all have that, where we look at a next gen and try to understand what makes them tick. I've been on the board of a newspaper company in Europe for the last 10 years. And I mean, when I joined that, it was a paper-based business. Now it's a completely digital business. And now AI is redefining that entire spectrum again, because a media company

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is now massively affected by this. And it's not about what technology could do, it's about how consumers react to that. And I think there's a number of interesting things happening there. I think as a CMO now these days, I think you need courage and I think you need a lot of courage to understand that new proposition that your customers are going through. Reaching them has never been harder. I think it's more complex than ever before.

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We also see a backlash of some of these technologies, which I find really interesting. I just finished reading the book by Corey Doctorow. I don't if you've read it. It's a terrible title, but it's called Enshitification. And he basically says, digital platforms are always going through a phase where you are good to users, like Facebook was in the beginning. And then you're good to business users, where you give them opportunities to tailor your ads to perfection.

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And then it just all goes south, it goes pear-shaped. And it's fascinating. And I don't agree with everything that Corey Doctorow says, but this is the reality. We have a lot of potential, a lot of new things. At the same time, there are some things that are going to have a negative connotation and a backlash. And I think as a CMO, you need to be courageous. You need to be courageous to be out there and to be vulnerable and to try and experiment and learn from those failures.

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I think in the past, a lot of marketing departments were built for scalable execution. I think we're now going to have to rebuild marketing departments for scalable learning, because I think that is the most crucial thing in this world of the never normal. Constant experimentation, a relentless focus on curiosity and courage, but putting that into a learning leverage opportunity, I think that's the most important thing.

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Ashley (28:54.772)

That's great. Okay, let's go back to the board. I think we have time for one more question.

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Peter (28:59.638)

Okay, well then I'm going to do, I have a Union Jack there, so let's go for number nine. I built a Union Jack.

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Peter Hinssen: The sooner CMOs accept the new never normal climate, the better

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Ashley (29:06.392)

I appreciate that. So you mentioned that CMOs who embrace the post pandemic era as the climate instead of a storm will be more successful. Why?

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Peter (29:18.936)

So, I mean, it goes back to this idea of what happened during the pandemic, where I think during the pandemic, we saw tremendous change in a really short period of time. And it was the first time that I heard the word liminal so often. And liminal was one of those words that I kind of knew what it was, but I didn't really, it was not a common word, but liminal was like, it's a transition period. And...

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liminal meant you can't go back to the way it was. I mean, that's not going to happen. We're also not really sure where we're going. And you saw a lot of these images, you know, of you have like this suspension bridge and there's fog and you can't see where you've been. can't, you don't really know where you're going. Liminal. That was like the absolute label of the pandemic. And I think post-pandemic, we didn't go back to a world of stability. We didn't go back to a world

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where everything was normal again. just got, you know, and multifaceted. was technological, was ecological, was societal, it was political, geopolitical. The world has never been more unstable. And I think many people saw this as it's a storm, you know? This is just gonna pass. And we just wait until the storm clears up and then we're gonna go back to the way it was. And I think this is fundamentally wrong. I don't believe that this is a liminal period anymore. This is...

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I think may be the new climate. This is the new climate where we're gonna see continuous change. Honestly, when I see the rate of change in the world of AI, that is just amazing. I've been in technology for 30 years. It's never been more challenging just to keep up. I mean, I literally mean that. I really wake up every morning, I turn on my phone, and I think, really? That just happened? I mean, when we're recording this,

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We just had the announcement that the final divorce settlement between OpenAI and Microsoft is now, basically, it's done. Look at this. Last year, Microsoft and OpenAI were the best partnership ever. Now, they basically said, we've agreed to see other people and we'll still be connected and we still have kids, but we're going to go forward each our own way. That alone.

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Peter (31:36.45)

to see these players continuously, you know, are in a dance. And I think the dance will never stop. That is the main idea. We are in a new climate. And I think the sooner that we acknowledge that, the sooner that we understand that, I think that we can start to understand how to use that, how to leverage that, and how to really build that to our advantage. And I go back, one of my favorite quotes is Ayrton Senna, the famous Formula One driver. And I don't know you're a Formula One fan, but Formula One is...

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If it's a sunny day, Formula One is really boring because it's basically the guy who starts number one ends number one. That's basically Formula One. And Ayrton Senna says, you know, you cannot overtake 15 cars in sunny weather, but you can when it is raining. And I think this is where we have to understand that this is an opportunity. This is where we have to embrace that. And I think the sooner that we understand that this is the new climate,

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I think the more chances we have to thrive in this never-normal.

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Ashley (32:37.54)

That's great to that's a great advice to end on. Love that quote as well. Thank you for sharing. OK, so on this podcast, we love to end with a little this or that. It's just a way for our audience to get to know you even more. So if your game you will just pick whichever one comes to mind first. Sound good.

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Peter Hinssen: Closing remarks

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Learn more about Peter on his website

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Peter (32:57.358)

Absolutely, fantastic.

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Ashley (32:58.55)

All right, let's go. Okay, a Belgian waffle or an American flapjack.

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Peter (33:02.158)

I have to say Belgian waffle. mean, I have a Belgian passport. I grew up in the US, Belgium, there is nothing better than a Belgian waffle. apologies for that.

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Ashley (33:13.622)

No, no, that's great. All right, speaking or writing.

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Peter (33:18.306)

I hate writing. I mean, writing is terrible. It's such a lonely time. And the interesting thing is this is the first time I've written a book with AI. The last five books were without AI. This is the first time I've actually didn't feel so alone because I had Chad TPP and Claude as my co-authors, really. But speaking is so much more fun because then you can talk to an audience. have a connection with an audience. You get feedback. Writing is super lonely. So speaking, absolutely.

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Ashley (33:46.975)

That's great. All right. Certainty or uncertainty?

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Peter (33:51.446)

Well, I have to go for uncertainty. think there is so much excitement in a world that is uncertain. mean, imagine, this is something which, I mean, even individuals, right? I have friends who, when they go on vacation, they know exactly where they're gonna be on the third day. They know where they're gonna dine on Thursday evening. And I think, yeah, but there is so much joy in discovering things and letting...

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The moment surprised you and this is where I think uncertainty wins hands down.

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Ashley (34:24.302)

Good. Okay. Farm work or yesterwork.

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Peter (34:27.598)

Well, I love that. I live on a farm. My wife is a veterinarian. She runs a nonprofit that does equine therapy with horses. In July and August, I don't work. I don't travel. I don't do any keynotes. don't write. I don't do any emails. Just, I'm in my overalls on the tractor on the farm. And that is the best time of the year. So farm work, absolutely.

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Ashley (34:53.482)

I think that's actually really good advice for folks as well. You got to take some time off. All right, I think this is an easy one, but an Apple chapel or a PC palace.

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Peter (35:03.074)

I mean, no disrespect. I mean, the PC is a wonderful evolution, but I think Apple is, I learned how to program on an Apple II when I was a young boy. The love for technology never went away. I became one the largest collectors of Apple computers in the world, and my church is a shrine to that. And I think what is fascinating is that Apple is a company that has gone through such ups and downs. I mean, it's not one of the most valuable companies in the world, but it was.

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completely bankrupt in 1997. And to see that company resurrect itself is, I think, inspirational. Tech is the new religion, so Apple Chapel wins, absolutely.

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Ashley (35:41.06)

AI or human?

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Peter (35:46.214)

I think we're in a golden age for humans. And I think we have to see AI really as wheels for the mind. And it goes back to a wonderful story about Apple. when Steve Jobs, three years before he founded Apple, he read an article, a Scientific American article on bicycles. And this is the March, 1973 issue of Scientific American. It was on bicycles, really boring.

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Peter (36:15.704)

But he read this and there was a graph there that shows all the different species on the planet and how much food they can ingest and how far they can travel with that. And the king is the condor because the condor is an amazing creature with very little food. They can travel huge distances. Humans were terrible, terrible. But if you gave them a bicycle, they outperformed the condor.

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And that just blew Steve Jobs mind. When he started Apple, he said, we're not building computers, we're building bicycles for the brain, wheels for the mind. And I think this is how we have to see this. Humans are the essence, but we have to see these tools as ways to give us, know, wheels to expand our mind. And I think if we see it that way, I think we're just fine.

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Ashley (37:03.948)

And what a beautiful depiction of your optimism. I love it. Peter, this has been an absolute blast. Thank you so much for coming on.

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Peter (37:11.726)

Absolute pleasure. Really nice to be with you and thanks for inviting me.

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Ashley (37:17.74)

And what's the best way, if people want to reach out to you, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

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Peter (37:21.713)

just my website, www.peterhinssen.com. P-E-T-E-R-H-I-N-S-S-E-N.com. That's the easiest way to get in touch.

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Ashley (37:31.158)

Thank you so much. I can't wait to continue to follow your journey

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Peter (37:34.762)

A pleasure and good luck with podcasts.

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